Curse

Retribution X · Mar 08, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

A lot of people seem to be missing some points here. This isn't going to touch SP Assassins. They lead in with Black Lotus, which charges their bar up to full. The BoS nerf won't do much because it allready processes out at ~60 damage, BoS counts four attacks in the standard SP/Black chain, it processes @16 or 17 damage per attack so you lose either 4 or 8 damage x 2, certainly not build-breaking.

Yeah, well, It's harder to combo if I use Hex breaker or blocking. if Black lotus misses, they are screwed.

And if the hex fails, they are screwed.

So now I have a better way to counter them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

Maybe it was overused because its one of the only useful elites to bring, aside from mobius and aod(not to mention the combo with aod is MUCH less lethal, and it takes more energy to use). And its still superior. It doesn't stop BoA sins because the energy is recovered by BLS.

I never use it, because there are better elites. AP, Hidden Caltrops, Shroud of Silence, Beguiling Haze, ETC.

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Yeah, well, It's harder to combo if I use Hex breaker or blocking. if Black lotus misses, they are screwed.

And if the hex fails, they are screwed.

So now I have a better way to counter them.

The skill update didn't change any of this...

The SP nerf was mainly aimed at Euro-Spike and SP Warriors. Assassins should have no problem with energy with the change...

dgb · Mar 08, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Yeah, well, It's harder to combo if I use Hex breaker or blocking. if Black lotus misses, they are screwed.

If Black Lotus misses, they are screwed no matter if SP costs 5e, 10e, 15e or even 25e. Nothing you posted is impacted at all by the change to SP.

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Assassins should have no problem with energy with the change...

Assassins using Expose defense, Shadow prison, BoA and black lotus to start the chain must now care about energy management and have a minimum of 35 energy pool now.

Retribution X · Mar 08, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

The skill update didn't change any of this...

The SP nerf was mainly aimed at Euro-Spike and SP Warriors. Assassins should have no problem with energy with the change...

I tried it yesterday. Bocking Lotus was screwing the assassins over pretty bad. Also hex breaker was too.

I'm just speaking from my experence.

I don't know what Euro-Spike is/was but I've seen the SP warriors, didn't nerf them overly. the ones I saw were using adrenal skills mostly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

If Black Lotus misses, they are screwed no matter if SP costs 5e, 10e, 15e or even 25e. Nothing you posted is impacted at all by the change to SP.

Actually, They usually seemed to bring non invinci eles and my sin down pretty well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Assassins using Expose defense, Shadow prison, BoA and black lotus to start the chain must now care about energy management and have a minimum of 35 energy pool now.

Exactly. Either they don't get their expose out, BoA out, or they don't start with lotus, which leads to lots of bad things happening.

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Assassins using Expose defense, Shadow prison, BoA and black lotus to start the chain must now care about energy management and have a minimum of 35 energy pool now.

Well, using BoA before Lotus is dumb.

Anways, if an assassin can't manage their energy because of this change then its pretty sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

I tried it yesterday. Bocking Lotus was screwing the assassins over pretty bad. Also hex breaker was too.

Were you away from the game for the last 8 months? Blocking lotus and/or removing hexes has always been a way to stop SP sins - these changes don't affect anything from that standpoint. I would suggest taking a look at how the skills work so you understand how the black line of attacks happen...

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Using BoA before Black Lotus is not Dumb, it's the best and quickest way to unleash the combo.

We never said that Assassin can't manage energy. We just say that now they HAVE to manage energy.

Shmanka · Mar 08, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

We faced a eurospike after these changes, and honestelly, saw no change at all. We were running an agressive split, 4/4 teams, focusing mobility, so no things like infuse. Guess which map they chose. Seriouslly, remove jade isle. Burning is acceptable, jade is idiotic. At first I thought Wastrel's demise was unnecessary, but seeing how people just use it for spike, I would even vote for a 2 seconds activation.

When it comes to EuroSpike, 2 things are key. The watch on the warriors for shadow prison. If there is a hex and there are no other hexes in the build... Eurospike does not have many except Diversion on the mes. If you see "Shadow Prison" on the top right corner of your screen your getting spiked, tell the monk and he infuses you. Thats how it is countered... nothing more, Eurospike beats the teams that are unprepared... and by unprepared I mean teams that do not communicate effectively and look for clues.

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Using BoA before Black Lotus is not Dumb, it's the best and quickest way to unleash the combo.

We never said that Assassin can't manage energy. We just say that now they HAVE to manage energy.

Yes it is. BoA is a stance, therefore it can be activated at any time. I would use it right after Black Lotus, thereby not losing any attack speed and still having the energy to use the rest of your combo.

Also, how is having to manage energy a bad thing? It doesn't really make the build any harder to use. Lets face it, the SP assassin is the easiest melee character in the game to play, except for maybe an RaO thumper. All you need to do is know where your number keys are and type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... all while being semi-conscious as to whether hexes have been removed to trigger your next offhand....

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Yes it is. BoA is a stance, therefore it can be activated at any time. I would use it right after Black Lotus, thereby not losing any attack speed and still having the energy to use the rest of your combo.

Also, how is having to manage energy a bad thing? It doesn't really make the build any harder to use. Lets face it, the SP assassin is the easiest melee character in the game to play, except for maybe an RaO thumper. All you need to do is know where your number keys are and type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... all while being semi-conscious as to whether hexes have been removed to trigger your next offhand....

First point, we know BoA is a stance and can be activated at any time. The fact is that you lose attack speed when activate it just after the energy gain of Black lotus. Don't you think that Sins didn't test this and admitted that it's better to use IAS before the first attack skill?

Second point, it's the second time you deform my post. I never said it was a bad thing. I just said they have to manage now, and that was not the case before.

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

First point, we know BoA is a stance and can be activated at any time. The fact is that you lose attack speed when activate it just after the energy gain of Black lotus. Don't you think that Sins didn't test this and admitted that it's better to use IAS before the first attack skill?

So you can use your first attack skill quicker? Whats the point? You're not spiking with Black Lotus, you're spiking with twisting, black spider, and blades of steel - those are the skills you need attack speed for so that your target becomes harder to heal.

The whole point is that these changes did not affect the way anyone plays an SP assassin. Unless that person is very very bad...

Lordhelmos · Mar 08, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I did some experimentation with this. Going from RA to TA I was running a Melandru Imbue Dervish. Since BoA I have been running imbue to save monks from being spiked down by the BoA nastiness. In RA the BoA assassins are horrendous, as expected. I would usually see them not use expose or not even finish the chain. This is most likely because they are inexperienced and are using low energy weapons, non zealous daggers, no attunement runes, non radiant armor sets, etc. So yes to the population of noob assassins that have been abusing the BoA sin this nerf hit VERY HARD.

However going against some better teams in TA, I found that at times the spike hit so hard or I would be a millisecond too late and miss the infuse because it hit so fast, as if the nerf never happened. These are experienced sins, using the IAS before black lotus, expose, and running high energy gear, radiants, zealous daggers, etc.

In my experience this is a very good nerf. Before SP and BoA was hit a drunk monkey with 1 leg, half an arm, and three fingers can use SP-BoA and get an easy instant kill. However now that SP is double the cost, noob sins that aren't running the right energy management setups are finding themselves screwed by the combo. Also with hex breaker being able to stop the first hit, if a BoA sin misses with black lotus they are toast with the new requirements.

In short BoA takes more experience to use, its also punished harder if the BoA sin fails due to the new cost and slap on the wrist Blades took. It can still be abused to a great extent, but the bottom line is that its less potent of an instant kill for attack spamming noobs who dont pay attention to important things like extension or energy.

Before the build was unquestionably broken. Now its still powerful but can only be used to its max potential in the hands of people that know what they are doing.

~

I am glad that ANET sees that the metagame was horribly lopsided after the update, and did something about it. SP-BoA, combined with Rtspike, and Neoway really brought me to question the state of the metagame. In fact after the skill balance I quit momentarily because I was upset at the overbuffs and lack of decent fix. Its good to see that problem mechanics are being spotted and isolated to prevent imba skill abuse before the tournament. I think this is a good step in the right direction and is enough to instill my loyalty back to the pvp aspect of the game.

As for ritspike, its still usable. Even after the nerf ive seen some teams hold the altar with some modded version of it. However before the update Lame -ntation spike was absolutely rediculous. Im glad to see this uneeded holding build get the flush, especially since a fortress build like that loaded with railcannons was extremely imba in killcount, which no one really likes too much anyway. Before the nerf you could have the best team in the world and still have a 3/10 chance of beating a rt team in a killcount map due to sheer cheapness and them picking off the weaker team and ghostly's with spikes.

~

Im not sure on how the overall community feels about this but personally I think kill count needs to go. Its extremely punishing towards degen and hex based builds and pretty much puts a fortress spike build on a golden pedestal. Kill count is one of the reasons why BoA and Lame -ntation were so dominant in halls, because of the unwarrented amount of pressure they apply. If diversity is the main goal in HA, kill count is not the way to go.

As for 8v8 im torn on the arguement. Bringing back 8v8 would simply mean the domination of spike teams in HA. During the 8v8 test, bloodspike, obsidian flame spike, and Rspike were already attracting droves of people. To me 8v8 is just asking for an all out sniper war. I can understand ANETS point of view on 8v8. With 8 people someone WILL find a way to abuse a high damage skill for a spike. 8v8 is best reserved for GvG, where killing is just a cog in the whole process of winning and more strategy is involved.

If more constructive goals were applied to HA, 8v8 would be a viable option. However, with killcount and the current HA setup. Theres not really much reason for the team to split, and splitting is what kills spike teams.

If HA had more of an emphasis on things like running flags or defending more than one area of the map at once, you would start to see more diverse builds, like what is seen in GvG. If the whole team is allowed to sick together for the duration of the battle of course you are going to see spike teams. If you want to improve HA and diversity, simply make it harder to camp.

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

So you can use your first attack skill quicker? Whats the point? You're not spiking with Black Lotus, you're spiking with twisting, black spider, and blades of steel - those are the skills you need attack speed for so that your target becomes harder to heal.

The whole point is that these changes did not affect the way anyone plays an SP assassin. Unless that person is very very bad...

Well, obviously you don't seem to have experience of this build, so I will stop arguing there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

However going against some better teams in TA, I found that at times the spike hit so hard or I would be a millisecond too late and miss the infuse because it hit so fast, as if the nerf never happened. These are experienced sins, using the IAS before black lotus, expose, and running high energy gear, radiants, zealous daggers, etc.

In my experience this is a very good nerf. Before SP and BoA was hit a drunk monkey with 1 leg, half an arm, and three fingers can use SP-BoA and get an easy instant kill. However now that SP is double the cost, noob sins that aren't running the right energy management setups are finding themselves screwed by the combo. Also with hex breaker being able to stop the first hit, if a BoA sin misses with black lotus they are toast with the new requirements.

In short BoA takes more experience to use, its also punished harder if the BoA sin fails due to the new cost and slap on the wrist Blades took. It can still be abused to a great extent, but the bottom line is that its less potent of an instant kill for attack spamming noobs who dont pay attention to important things like extension or energy.

Before the build was unquestionably broken. Now its still powerful but can only be used to its max potential in the hands of people that know what they are doing.

Well said.

Retribution X · Mar 08, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Were you away from the game for the last 8 months? Blocking lotus and/or removing hexes has always been a way to stop SP sins - these changes don't affect anything from that standpoint. I would suggest taking a look at how the skills work so you understand how the black line of attacks happen...

No, I've been playing GW the last 4 months. SP wasn't aroun 8 months ago, because there wasn't black spider, BoA, or SP, Because Nightfall wasn't released yet.

And, no, Using zealous daggers with the combo and using spider-TF-Lotus-BoS Is what usually happens to me pre nerf. Post nerf I've been getting Lotus-TF-Spider-BoS.

I Write Sins · Mar 08, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

yay expose defenses still lasts as long as usual, now all the BoAs can use Deaths Charge in place of Shadow Prison, and Shattering Assualt in place of Blades of steel...

woot?

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Well, obviously you don't seem to have experience of this build, so I will stop arguing there.

Or perhaps because you know that I am correct and unwilling to admit you're wrong. I mean, honestly, please tell me what the point of having a 33% attack boost for JUST black lotus strike will do for you? The killers in this build are twisting, spider, and blades. Black lotus is just for the energy. Its like saying that using frenzy before you shock is needed. No, you fenzy to get the deep wound followed by the next attack skill to do a huge amount of damage with the effect of the deep wound. Obviously, you don't understand what the important factors are in a melee spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

No, I've been playing GW the last 4 months. SP wasn't aroun 8 months ago, because there wasn't black spider, BoA, or SP, Because Nightfall wasn't released yet.

And, no, Using zealous daggers with the combo and using spider-TF-Lotus-BoS Is what usually happens to me pre nerf. Post nerf I've been getting Lotus-TF-Spider-BoS.

The timeline was an exaggeration. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what offhand is used to trigger the attacks, both rely on hexes to be used. Also, using spider second has the added benefit of covering the deep wound from twisting - making the spike much more dangerous.

Lordhelmos · Mar 08, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Or perhaps because you know that I am correct and unwilling to admit you're wrong. I mean, honestly, please tell me what the point of having a 33% attack boost for JUST black lotus strike will do for you? The killers in this build are twisting, spider, and blades. Black lotus is just for the energy. Its like saying that using frenzy before you shock is needed. No, you fenzy to get the deep wound followed by the next attack skill to do a huge amount of damage with the effect of the deep wound. Obviously, you don't understand what the important factors are in a melee spike.

The timeline was an exaggeration. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what offhand is used to trigger the attacks, both rely on hexes to be used. Also, using spider second has the added benefit of covering the deep wound from twisting - making the spike much more dangerous.

My input on this is that BoA is a melee spike that you will want hitting as fast as possible. Once the shadow prison is laid down on the target, that starts an internal clock in the mind of the monk healing. The .5 seconds that you waste by NOT using the BoA stance during the black lotus strike is a window of opportunity for a healing monk to spirit bond, rof, or do something to save your target. Shadow prison is a dead giveaway that you WILL spike a target. You would be insane not to use BoA before the whole combo lands, because once your target is SP'ed it's a race between you killing your target and a good monk healing. Why they hell you even want to sacrifice a millisecond of your time? You could fail the kill.

Its SP > BoA > stab > stab > stab > dead.

not

SP > do your laundry, walk the dog, go swimming > BoA > stab > stab > oh damn, spirit bond > not dead.

BoA before the whole combo ftw. Anything else endangers your ability to kill in a high level game. Also black lotus is needed to start the combo. If you waste a split second using it, the monk might have enough time to dehex himself with holy veil. After you hit air, you can be damn sure the wrath of god is coming down on your poor little assassin heiny after that. I wouldn't take the chance. BoA is a build designed to kill as fast as possible. If you decrease the speed at which the chain hits, you are only betraying the nature of the build altogether.

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

My input on this is that BoA is a melee spike that you will want hitting as fast as possible. Once the shadow prison is laid down on the target that starts an internal clock in the mind of the monk thats going to save that unlucky guy you are trying to plow down. The .5 seconds that you waste by NOT using the BoA stance during the black lotus strike is a window of opportunity for a healing monk to spirit bond, rof, or do something to save your target. Shadow prison is a dead giveaway that you WILL spike a target. You would be insane not to use BoA before the whole combo lands, because once your target is SP'ed it's a race between you killing your target and a good monk healing. Why they hell you even want to sacrifice a millisecond of your time? You could fail the kill.

Its SP > BoA > stab > stab > stab > dead.

not

SP > do your laundry, walk the dog, go swimming > BoA > stab > stab > oh damn, spirit bond >not dead.

BoA before the whole combo ftw. Anything else endangers your ability to kill in a high level game.

This is the best reason I have heard as to why you would want to trigger BoA ASAP. However, if you are spiking with sins in a build without other hexes, the spike will get caught by a prot spell even if the sin is just using SP. If you are trying to use SP & Exposed on a targer to spike them, then you have already given away the spike by using Expose first.

If you are looking at this from a time standpoint, then energy management is not even a problem, because using exposed defenses takes away from the "surprise" of the spike and you should be using SP without Exposed.

Keep in mind, the whole point of this argument is based upon the fact that people are saying that the SP "nerf" will affect the SP/BoA Sin because it creates energy management problems, when in fact it won't.

Eroth · Mar 08, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Didn't the Rt skills just get a big boost? Already they're taking them down... and even with the boosts the skills are condition-based making it hard to do even some damage. for example

[skill=big]Wielder's Strike[/skill]

without a weapon spell on you do only 63 dmg at max channeling. And that's not counting the the dmg reduction from elemental armors!

and compare that to this

[skill=big]Flare[/skill]

it has 12 seconds less of a recharge and does 5 more dmg. I think thats a little unfair. If thery're gonna change those skills they need to make recharge times shorter and get rid of the conditions like the item, or weapon spell or spirits nearby. Rt's need some "just hit" skills. not conditional "do some minor dmg" skills.

Lordhelmos · Mar 08, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

I don't see a problem with wielders strike. With a weapon spell, (which is not hard to come by) it deals 126 damage. Try taking a ritualist with spirit's strength, give him a bow with dual shot, nightmare weapon, and wielder's strike with some points in channeling.

I don't know many eles that can throw two flares at once. Also take into account that flare is a projectile attack. It can be sidestepped. Wielders strike hits you where ever you stand for some decent damage. If flare had the same properties as wielder's strike, it would never leave my bar. Flare spike anyone?

If you are having issues with dealing damage as a ritualist you must be using the wrong builds. There are some sickeningly damage rit builds out there, including the nightmare archer I mentioned, spirit bomb rits, and yes channeling still hurts even with the nerf. Try destructive was glaive and spirit burn, those still hurt.

Ritualists did get a nice boost, but you have to admit Lame -ntation spike was way overpowered. I mean it got to the point where 4/5 teams holding were lamers that just snipe at people during killcount. Channeling should not be blown out of proportion to the point of matching ele damage. I will say this because of the defensive capabilities that ritualist have with their binding rituals. If you overbuff channeling you will only paying the way for a fortress spike team thats going to be pelting you with 200dmg undodgable shocks while hiding in a sea of spirits like shelter, union, displacement, shadowsong, wanderlust... etc.